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"Since the early days, the church has thrown itself violently against every effort to liberate the body and mind of man. It has been, at all times and everywhere, the habitual and incorrigible defender of bad governments, bad laws, bad social theories, bad institutions. It was, for centuries, an apologist for slavery, as it was an apologist for the divine right of kings."
-- H.L. Mencken

just because the followers of a religion are corrupt does not mean that the religion itself is no mercy. also everbody else is trying to end this fight. you should be trying to do the same. also to deathtomome and mirenee. If you have a problem with the length of any of our texts then don't read them. if we wish to adequately argue each others points our responses must be wordy. to rena I understand why you don't like my religion because it teaches that homosexuality is wrong. I think it is wrong. ( purely my opinion) but I couldn't care less if somebody does it. to me it is like cursing. it annoys me and I can ask people to stop and suggest methods how to but I can't force them to do anything. I don't like it but it's not going to stop so i'm not going to try to stop it. also talk to your brother and try and convince him to agree to disagree. we are just going to keep arguing and this debate will never end except for maybe at the end of the worlld which i think may be soon.

I agree with rena. I hate some other religions too. I also I don't really care about what rena said about parents forcing their religion on their kids. once i have kids if I have kids I will teach my kids my religion because the other religions I have heard of I don't like the sounds of. I don't care if they are atheists I just don't want them to believe in any of the religions that encourage discrimination or the killing of innocent human beings. that is why some people force their religion on their kids I'm thinking.

I had more stuff but I didn't feel like starting a blood battle. I will fight if one gets started but I will not intentionally start one. if enough people are not willing to let peace exist and wish to keep the debate going (cracks fingers) then let the blood battle begin. however I prefer using fighting as a last resort.

If you wish it to stop, then stop posting. You keep giving more fuel to my fire to assault religion every time you post.

once i have kids if I have kids I will teach my kids my religion because the other religions I have heard of I don't like the sounds of. I don't care if they are atheists I just don't want them to believe in any of the religions that encourage discrimination or the killing of innocent human beings.

Haha, good one. You don't want them to follow a religion that is inferior, for you believe that Christianity is above the things that other religions supposedly do. Yet, alas, you continue to do exactly the same by saying you don't want your children to follow a religion you don't like the sound of. By the by, the Bible encourages discrimination and the killing of innocents, ergo... You guessed it, that's completely screwed up.

Something entertaining, for both you, and everyone else. A little movie entitled The Bible Is A Repulsive Piece Of Shit. http://youtube.com/watch?v=vkXOwBIRX7Y
Quite a good video, and it puts forward many of the ideas I feel in a much more succinct manner.


I understand why you don't like my religion because it teaches that homosexuality is wrong. I think it is wrong. ( purely my opinion) but I couldn't care less if somebody does it. to me it is like cursing. it annoys me and I can ask people to stop and suggest methods how to but I can't force them to do anything.

Oh my my my my, where to begin on this? I'm going to use a short response with which I used upon another person whom put forward a similar point.

Look outside, moron. Do you SEE any gay/lesbian couples having a quick fuck on your lawn? No? Your point is irrelevant and lacking in meaning.

Also, you keep contradicting yourself. You couldn't care less, but it annoys you and you ask people to stop, or suggest methods how to stop. That rings me back to the link I posted a while back, on that radicalist Christian site which should be firebombed and tossed into hell.

The way you are acting over your religion puts me in mind of another person with whom I had a deep debate over this same subject. Her responses, though more radicalist than yours, help many of the same ideals. She said, and I quote:

Quote:THE BIBLE IS TRUE!!! GOD IS REAL!!! AND IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE ME, YOU'RE GOING TO HELL!! And when you get there, then you'll be thinking "I really wish I listened to her." But it'll be too late. Even if it's not real, wut's the hurt in believing me. Nothing will happen to you. But if it is, and you don't believe me, then you risk living eternity in Hell. At least give it a chance. Go to a church and ask all the questions you want. Just try it.

The response was as such.

Quote:If anybody goes to Hell, it is people like you. The focal point of your "argument" (or the nonsense you think passes for an argument) is that we ought to worship God because failure to do so prompts him to banish us to a state of eternal agony.

You claim to follow a religion whose chief tenets are love and compassion, but you lapse into (clumsy) attempts to intimidate other people into your faith through fear. Worse, you're not doing this for them, but for yourself - the thought of people not walking your path but existing in the same world as you makes you feel ill at ease, so you seek to convert them in the only way you know how, simutaneously turning your faith into a hypocrisy.

I'm sure your Lord and Savior appreciates your sincere and dedicated faith . . . you selfish fool.

Now as for you going to Hell - because God is all-knowing, he perceives that your chief reason for following him is because you fear eternal agony. Not love of him, Creation, or your fellow humanity (atheists included), as it the obligation of all Christians, but fear for your own well-being. Such selfishness . . . such selfishness . . . do you think God is blind? Do you think he doesn't notice what you are doing? Do you think he fails to see all there is to you? Do you think he approves of your intimidation tactics? Do you think he is so much like you that he'll grin in approval?

So, while I shake hands with God in Heaven, we'll be laughing down at you as you scream in Hell.

Of course, if there is God, I doubt either one of us will be in Hell . . . no Supreme Being would embrace a doctrine of cruel and unusual punishment. After all, are not the circumstances of our lives at least partially responsible for what we feel, think, and do?

Without full capacity to be accountable for our actions, Hell seems like too unfair and severe a consequence, don't you think?

Much easier to believe that Hell was tacked onto the Bible by some Christian spiritual leaders who thought it would help intimidate people into accepting and keeping the faith . . . it seems to have worked on you. You allowed fear to drive you into slave status.

Your faith is just one of the many dry, meaningless lip services God has to put up with. It is essentially the type of faith held by most all people of any faith. Some with a faith have achieved greatness . . . but you are not one of them.

Freely you believe in God? HA. Slave you are. Slave to your own fears, anxieties, and insecurities. These feelings have no outlet . . . no outlet other than the ugliness I've been forced to put up with in your posts.

Fool who knows absolutely nothing! Do you think it mere coincidence that your so-called morality has brought about all of the things it was supposed to prevent? A society full of selfish, weak, cowardly, anti-intellectual idiots?

Indeed, faith always depends on the one whom believes, but faith in religion is an extremely weak link in the chain of humanity, one that would be better off severed.

Side-note to Administrators/Moderators: This may qualify as not respecting other members of this board, but I consider it expression of a personal belief... but still, if I get censored, it is of no great consequence, as my words will likely have no effect on anyone beyond making them resent me. This is of no importance to me, and is thus inconsequential.

Quote:just because the followers of a religion are corrupt does not mean that the religion itself is no mercy. also everbody else is trying to end this fight. you should be trying to do the same.

Even if a religion is not corrupt religion breeds corruption. It should by rights be banned. It has done nothing but to perpetuate the misery of the underprivileged in society. The only people it helps are people too "coddled" and wrapped in cotton wool to know about any of the real grime of the world. The grim and gritty reality, the entrails of everything and eternity. Religion objectifies people. Women, many ethnic groups. Homosexuals are also under fire. Religion is the ultimate and totalitarian form of discrimination and is unacceptable. I will never respect those who are foolish enough to fall in line with it.

To end a conflict before it has reached a conclusion is idiocy. You only wish it to end because your arguments are based on nothing but heresay, personal belief and smoke. In short they are weaker than ours fact.

Quote:also to deathtomome and mirenee. If you have a problem with the length of any of our texts then don't read them. if we wish to adequately argue each others points our responses must be wordy.

They have a right to express their opinions - or does your God not believe in personal opinion?

Quote:to rena I understand why you don't like my religion because it teaches that homosexuality is wrong. I think it is wrong. ( purely my opinion) but I couldn't care less if somebody does it. to me it is like cursing. it annoys me and I can ask people to stop and suggest methods how to but I can't force them to do anything. I don't like it but it's not going to stop so i'm not going to try to stop it. also talk to your brother and try and convince him to agree to disagree. we are just going to keep arguing and this debate will never end except for maybe at the end of the worlld which i think may be soon.

Your intolerant beliefs disgust me. You seem to believe that God is right. No. God is God; and right is 'right'. They do not always overlap. I have already PROVED God is not good. Your only comeback seemed to be "lolz god is good cuz he is urrr god lol" back it up or suck it up. People think they can use magic words to force me to respect them. Religion has unfortunately been protected by a liberal government for too long but once it is exposed and I WILL HAVE IT EXPOSED there will be pandemonium.

Quote: I agree with rena. I hate some other religions too. I also I don't really care about what rena said about parents forcing their religion on their kids. once i have kids if I have kids I will teach my kids my religion because the other religions I have heard of I don't like the sounds of. I don't care if they are atheists I just don't want them to believe in any of the religions that encourage discrimination or the killing of innocent human beings. that is why some people force their religion on their kids I'm thinking.

Your religion encourages discrimination you hypocrite! Your religion is as blood-stained if not more so than any other religion worldwide. The Holy Crusades - The Child Armies brutally slaughtered and sent to war.

Timothy 1:9-10 Wrote:Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine.

The bold text translates in Greek to "arsenokoitai." which many higher ups in YOUR religion returned again wrongly as "Homosexuality". Do you not see that the butchered and filthy version of the religion that is taught today is a shadow of its former self? Homosexuality arguably in the very original non-distorted version wasn't even considered wrong. But elements were added and truncated at will by the corrupt ones. The corrupt body of thoughts. Your teachers - the priesthood or any high up Church representatives.

This means either the church leaders do not fear butchering Gods work (which would suggest that God isn't real, because even the highest members do not fear him) or that the teachers are corrupt (in which case by following them you anger God more) take your pick those are your only two options.

Quote:I had more stuff but I didn't feel like starting a blood battle. I will fight if one gets started but I will not intentionally start one. if enough people are not willing to let peace exist and wish to keep the debate going (cracks fingers) then let the blood battle begin. however I prefer using fighting as a last resort.

Also I feel the need to enlighten you to the fact that portions of the Christian Bible were lifted and edited from the Sumarian Creation Myths. Further clarification? Okay let's examine:

http://www.gotquestions.org/Lillith.html Wrote:There are un-Biblical legends that Adam had a wife before Eve who was named Lilith. The legends vary significantly, but they all essentially agree that Lilith left Adam because she did not want to submit to him. According to the legends, Lilith was an evil, wicked woman who committed adultery with Satan and produced a race of evil creatures. None of this is true. There is no Biblical basis whatsoever for these concepts. There is no one in the Bible named Lilith.

When the Sumerian Creation Myths were re-worked into the beginnings of the bible for the purposes of a corrupt society they demonised Lilith and unbalanced the sexes so men could be dominant. They replaced Lilith with Eve (because she was more submissive). More discrimination.

Your religion does not let peace exist by persecutiong so many; and by condemning those outside to hell after life.

Know this

If you have the authority to claim I'm going to the hell of your religion; you're damn well going to at least the ninth circle of mine. And it will be most excruciating.

- End -

if I stop posting that means I concede to your side and I don't so I won't ever stop posting until both sides can agree to disagree.

okay well first of all there is no proof of this so called lillith ever existing. Also if the creation story is from a myth from another religion then that merely means that God didn't tell humans how he made them. it probably wasn't from amoebas to monkeys though because there is no historical proof of it happening. second you can't say bad things about religion because darwinism IS religion. the definition of religion is a person's beliefs and opinions of the existence and nature of a divine being or beings. so therefore if you got rid of religion you would also get rid of darwinism. all charles darwin did is create a new religion basically based on hedonism. there is not enough proof to say that man evolved from amoebas. there is evolution but not of that sort.

secondly if there is no God there is no right and wrong. therefore you are saying that burning, torturing, murdering, raping, hating people because of their race, sex or if they are heterosexual homosexual or bisexual and beating people is not wrong.

thirdly people can take their religion too far. I will admit that but that doesn't mean the religion itself is evil it just means that the believers took it too far.

fourthly if there was no religion people wouldn't care whether or not people thought something is wrong because if there is no religion it can't be right or wrong.

fifthly I don't want my kids learning that these religions are okay when everybody knows it isn't
satanism(do everything you can to hurt people at every given chance) hinduism (anybody lower on the system is inferior and anyone higher is superior and that can never change)
darwinisnm (you can do whatever you want because there is no God)
hedonism(doing whatever you want whenever you want.)

these all teach something that is wrong and everbody knows it.

sixth i do not wish to end this fight because my arguments are weak I wish to end it because if we don't everybody on this site is going to choose a side and be bitter enemies to the other side. I don't want that to happen but it will if we try to make this argument last.

seventh okay well the person you quoted has either done no research therefore they are an idiot or they are an eight year old who like you said blindly believes what is spoon fed to them. therefore if they have done no research they probably conceded your argument and are now an atheist. congratulations. you probably turned a reasonably happy person miserable. now first of all God wouldn't send you to hell because you don't believe in him. He would send you to hell because of things you did that you knew was wrong and didn't do things to try to make up for it or he might punish you in some way if you constantly blaspheme him and insult the people who do believe in him. which could actually lead you to hell but I'm not sure.

now I have to get off so adios

Quote:okay well first of all there is no proof of this so called lillith ever existing. Also if the creation story is from a myth from another religion then that merely means that God didn't tell humans how he made them. it probably wasn't from amoebas to monkeys though because there is no historical proof of it happening.

Of course it's a myth. I was comparing a myth to a myth, the bible is also a myth. There's no proof of Eve either. I'm not saying God told us how he made us (if he were to exist - why would he?) I'm just saying the religion (which is separate from God) created a myth which it modified from a pure form to a corrupt form. The religion is corrupt. You never cite anything.

Also there is historical proof of darwinism. In fact, there is even RECENT PROOF that darwinism is still occuring even now. Domestication. The dog descended from the wolf through random mutation. It's undeniable. There are museums full of 'Bone Records' showing the process of evolution. We even see random mutations that aren't so successful occuring these days in the form of people with six-fingers per hand etc.

You can't claim we were made in the image of God when one day our image will change again - and will continue to do so forever. We have no image, we mutate. It is foolish to assume that we as humans have finished evolving. We havent. We are imperfect because we have room to improve through mutation. If God made us in his image then he made us imperfect thus stating that God is IMPERFECT. Contradiction within the religion yet again.

Quote:second you can't say bad things about religion because darwinism IS religion. the definition of religion is a person's beliefs and opinions of the existence and nature of a divine being or beings. so therefore if you got rid of religion you would also get rid of darwinism. all charles darwin did is create a new religion basically based on hedonism. there is not enough proof to say that man evolved from amoebas. there is evolution but not of that sort.

Wrong again. You just said it yourself "beliefs and opinions of the existence and nature of a divine being or beings" - no devine being or beings in Darwinism. You lose. Plus, it isn't opinion. It's fact. Even if it has some contradictions it has infinitely less than any religion.

Quote:secondly if there is no God there is no right and wrong. therefore you are saying that burning, torturing, murdering, raping, hating people because of their race, sex or if they are heterosexual homosexual or bisexual and beating people is not wrong.

Another secondly? Hah, you have an interesting understanding of numbers...

Why do you claim that if there is no God there is no right and wrong? I dispute that. In fact all that says about you is that if you were personally an athiest you might turn to crime. Disturbing. I wouldn't.

Anyway, right and wrong is defined by human values. Just like humans wrote the bible (and defined the values within it. God didn't do that). In fact right and wrong is a concept throughout history which is in a constant state of flux around the world. Because right and wrong can be seen as slightly different in different areas/cultures/times this further proves there is no governing universal right/wrong aka God.

Quote:thirdly people can take their religion too far. I will admit that but that doesn't mean the religion itself is evil it just means that the believers took it too far.

If there was no religion, no one could take it too far. Why run the risk? Is your own peace of mind worth the deaths of millions world wide? How selfish.

Quote:fourthly if there was no religion people wouldn't care whether or not people thought something is wrong because if there is no religion it can't be right or wrong.

Wrong, social values exist. Athiests and Agnostics alike have values inspired by family units and wider society to protect the human race innately. Therefore religion is not necessary. Your reliance on an external being to tell you what is right and wrong disturbs me. If God appeared and told you to kill innocent babies you would probably do it. Your thinking is dangerous.

Quote:fifthly I don't want my kids learning that these religions are okay when everybody knows it isn't
satanism(do everything you can to hurt people at every given chance) hinduism (anybody lower on the system is inferior and anyone higher is superior and that can never change)
darwinisnm (you can do whatever you want because there is no God)
hedonism(doing whatever you want whenever you want.)

these all teach something that is wrong and everbody knows it.

Darwinism never says "Do what you want". It just doesn't offer any structure. You know why? Because family and society are supposed to form this. Nothing else. And nothing fanatical.

Also not all forms of Satanism tell you to hurt people o_O Do you even understand what satanism is? No, because of religious-propeganda.

For example, Laveyan satanists do not nessicerily worship satan as God at all, it's more along the idea or concept of what Satan is:

Wikipedia Wrote:LaVeyan Satanism is a religion founded in 1966 by Anton LaVey. Its teachings are based on individualism, social Darwinism, self-indulgence, and "eye for an eye" morality, with influence from Friedrich Nietzsche and Ayn Rand, while its rituals and magic draw heavily from occultists such as Aleister Crowley. Borrowing Crowley's terminology, its adherents define Satanism as a "Left-Hand Path" religion, rejecting traditional "Right-Hand Path" religions such as Christianity for their perceived denial of life and emphasis on guilt and abstinence. Unlike Theistic Satanism, which is rejected by the Church of Satan as Christian heresy rather than Satanism, it does not literally worship Satan, but rather uses "Satan" as a symbol for people's natural inner desires.[1]

Anton LaVey established Satanism's first and largest religious organization, the Church of Satan, in 1966, and codified Satanic beliefs and practices in the Satanic Bible in 1969. According to the Church of Satan, there are many Satanists around the world, including both members and non-members. It rejects the legitimacy of any other organizations of Satanists, dubbing them reverse-Christians and pseudo-Satanists. Although exact numbers have never been released, it has been estimated that the number of adherents is in the tens of thousands.[2]

Now stop being so damned ignorant.

Quote:sixth i do not wish to end this fight because my arguments are weak I wish to end it because if we don't everybody on this site is going to choose a side and be bitter enemies to the other side. I don't want that to happen but it will if we try to make this argument last.

Not true, heated debate is great. My mother and sister dislike it most of the time but my friend Kim, I and my father rather enjoy it. It's not hate it's just passion! Just because I hate religion that... Doesn't mean I really hate you. In fact I find you rather interesting (although I didn't at first).

Quote:seventh okay well the person you quoted has either done no research therefore they are an idiot or they are an eight year old who like you said blindly believes what is spoon fed to them. therefore if they have done no research they probably conceded your argument and are now an atheist. congratulations. you probably turned a reasonably happy person miserable. now first of all God wouldn't send you to hell because you don't believe in him. He would send you to hell because of things you did that you knew was wrong and didn't do things to try to make up for it or he might punish you in some way if you constantly blaspheme him and insult the people who do believe in him. which could actually lead you to hell but I'm not sure.

Sending people to hell because they don't believe in your cause is like when Hitler sent all those people to burn because they were speaking out against him (or were Jewish - God discriminates against homosexuals as Hitler did against many sects of society) - Interesting that it's easy to draw parallells between Hitler and God... >_>;

Quote:now I have to get off so adios

Adios.

God doesn't send you to hell because you don't believe in him. he sends you to hell because you knowingly willlingly freely do things you know that you shouldn't like I said before.

I'm saying there would be utter chaos because some people only do things that are good because of certain religions. without religion there would be no need to be good therefore some people might do good things but bad things would be almost 75% more abundant. Some people only ever started caring baout bad things happening because of religion. if religion didn't exist then there would be no point in being good. I'm not saying I WOULD turn to a life of crime if God doesn't exist I'm saying that IF I did it wouldn't matter because the worst somebody could do would be kill me or send me to prison for life if the crimes were commited here on Jupitar. if there is no place where good people are rewarded and bad people punished then I have nothing to fear if I go to a life of crime except maybe a bullet to the brain which I could survive.


it is not foolish to assume that we are made in the image of God. mainly because it says we are MADE in the image of God. It does not say that we will not change anywhere in the bible. I doubt we are to assume that made in the Image of God means that we are always the same no matter what. Also one technicality there is image. an image is not the same thing as a duplicate. otherwise it would say we are made to look exactly like God forever. think of it like a complex machine. it is made to do something but if you program it right it will may still eventually do things that it wasn't actually made to do. it is also foolish to assume we were made by complete random. think of it this way. A car is a complex piece of machinery. if it has a lot of things in the wrong place it won't run. also since you know it is a complex piece of machinery you know it has to have been designed by intelligence and the pieces didn't just fall out of the sky and were made into a corvette from 2009 that is but one of the reasons that darwinism won't be widely believed. also if darwinism was fact many more people would believe it. there is simply not enough proof to say that darwinism is pure fact and enough proof to dismiss the bible as utter crap. there is proof of evolution I will admit. however I highly doubt that simple amoebas could tranform into humans.Even in a few billion years and Even if there is nothing after death I'd rather live my life with as much goodness and decency as possible before I do die. I hope some day everyone thinks like that Even if it never happens.

once again darwinism is a religion because it is opinion and belief not utter fact. opinions and beliefs about divine beings. your opinion and beliefs about divine beings are that they don't exist therefore darwinism is technically a religion. otherwise like I have said it would be much more widely believed.once you have complete and utter proof that darwinism happened people will most likely all believe. However I doubt that darwinism is going to exist for long. Heck I doubt humans are going to exist for very long knowing the way things are going.

when I was talking about satanism I was talking about worshiping the deity that my religion teaches is evil and is. therefore if they believed it they would do the exact opposite of what every good person says to do. basically anti-christian. also clearly that relgion evil or more followers would exist.

even if there is proof that darwinism happened which I admit there is some that says it does have a chance of being true you have to admit there is proof that points the other way as well.


I agree that if there was no religion there would be nobody to take it too far. that point I must concede. however you also have to concede that a lot of people might only be doing good because of religion. .therefore if those people start believing that there is no God and no heaven and hell then they won't care if what they do is wrong. If there is no afterlife then I could come over to where you live and kill you because you don't agree with me because there would be no need for me to be good anymore. that is my point. however I DO believe there is an afterlife therefore I will not go and kill you or do other evil things to you. the worst I will probably ever do to you is tell you why I think your religion is dumb and why I believe that there is a God. which is what i'm doing

there is no indisputable truth. both sides are open to dispute and may always be. I think that people will be happier though with the prospect of an afterlife because if they are good people then they may feel they never have to live in fear of death because they will go to heaven or as norman greenbaum would say "when I die and they lay me to rest i'm going to go to the place that's the best" however if you are an atheist you may live in fear of dying if this truly is all there is.

so since I will never convince you that my religion is the true one and there si no way to stop you I guess you can blaspheme all you want. however I wish you would just say why you don't like or want to believe my religion rather than utterly insulting it.also the reference to dante aleghieri's the inferno has no real point because it is a person's opinion most likely. also as no mercy has so kindly pointed out that the homosexual thing from the bible is a mistranslation therefore you cannot draw a parralel from hitler to God from that point if what no mercy said is true. So thanks for giving me something to help me defend my faith no mercy (taunting laugh) even if the bible does say homosexuality is a sin it won't get you sent to hell.

also on a different note I review what I write and must have missed that so don't blame me if I messed up. sometimes I go back and review my points and I make mistakes like that. I however will not delete it because if I do then this part of my post has no real point.

the wolf to dog point has no relevance. evolution is possible that point is true however your point was from a wolf to a dog. basically the same creature. not from say an amoeba to a lizard. there may be fossils that prove evolution can happen but there are few fossils that prove that creatures evolved to other creatures of entirely different species.

also heated debate can make both sides bitter enemies to one another. even though you are right that it can be fun

and mirinee and death to mome can have opinions I'm merely saying why I won't change my text length

"Tis foolishness! If all were so easy, why, none would suffer in this world!"

Your ideas, which you keep replicating and replicating, stating the exact same thing in bigger words that are spelled worse, simply prove your ignorance to the evidence before you. There is not one goddamn speck of evidence for the Bible. It is pure faith alone. It is not given any proof whatsoever, there is nothing. Quote scripture for me, friend.

On the subject of Darwinism, and your ideas that it is faith...

1. Self-replication/Inheritance: Some number of entities must be capable of producing copies of themselves, and those copies must also be capable of reproduction. The new copies must inherit the traits of old ones. Sometimes the different variations are recombined in sexual reproduction. If you're too dumb to know, this means that sex produces babies, which are, when brought to the basic terminology, a collection of cells from both parties.
   
2. Variation: There must be a range of different traits in the population of entities, and there must be a mechanism for introducing new variations into the population.
   
3. Selection: Inherited traits must somehow affect the ability of the entities to reproduce themselves, either by survival (natural selection), or by ability to produce offspring by finding partners (sexual selection).

Darwinism states that any physical being, given these three traits, has a chance for natural evolution occurring. This means over a period of time, the organisms collect traits they find through their continued reproduction.

Even computers can be taken as a form of electronic Darwinism. However, there is no random selection or reproduction.

Also, Darwinism isn't the only claim to evolution of our species, and others. Lee Smolin's theory of cosmological natural selection explains how this planet was created to have the complex materials required to support life-forms such as we. It also defines the creations of universes.

I would like to add, also, that whilst religious leaders come and go without much care, scientific leaders are remembered throughout history. Richard Dawkins supports the theory of Darwinism. I recommend you read this: http://www.arn.org/docs/johnson/wid.htm before throwing around your idiotic ideas about Darwinism being for the most part false, whilst in the same breath asserting that your god had sex with a woman without breaking her hymen, as well as her falling pregnant directly after. In case you didn't know, I'm speaking of the so-called virgin Mary. I shudder to think how painful child-birth would be without previously breaking the hymen.

Now, about your sweeping assumption that people only do good due to religion. Take a look around you, moron; there are millions of people who do not believe in religion, and we don't go around committing crimes. If anything religion can be blamed for criminal activity. Look at race-hate crimes, sexist crimes, and the like, then look at how many of the antagonists in these follow a religion and use it as a get-out-of-jail-free card. I read an article not long ago, I'll see if I can find it. It was somewhat to do with religious leaders joining together in an effort to stop gay rights, naming it an affront to god. FOOLISHNESS!

You state without religion there is no need to be good, what is your problem? You're seeming more retarded with every post, your idiotic assumptions that everyone has to play nice just 'cause Jesus is coming amuse me, whilst simultaneously making me retch at the fact I must be classified as the same race as you. Your evident problem with control does not help matters, you try to police threads here just because you have a problem with other people's ideas or language. Newsflash man, this is the internet. Nobody gives two shits if they offend you or not, because you're like one of those happy-boppers. No matter how much we smash you you always bounce back with your brainless double-standards and out-dated idealistic approach to scientific concerns.

You state we are made in the image of god, show me proof. Proof that does not come from your out-dated scripture and your neo-narcissistic assumptions. Proof that can be backed up with facts and figures, not the threat of burning in a fiery pit if I do not comply to your closed-minded view on the world, as seen through your glasses tinted rose. Show me the essays and papers that prove to me that religion is in fact, more than just a bed-time story I could use to scare my son into behaving. A tale sung by the bards; we know not the author, but remember only the tale. That's all it is, friend. A tale.

There is no heaven, nor is there a hell. There is nothing when you die, no divine judgement or rites of passage through some gateway in the clouds.

~Life is a path, Death is the destination. - I Have Seen Where It Grows, Demon Hunter.

Edit: Fixed spelling and re-worded a few sentences.

well any six year old knows the definition of need is that you have to have it in order to achieve someting. therefore without an almighty God that sends you to heaven if you are a good person there is no real NEED to be good. I'm not saying that religion is the ONLY reason people are good I'm saying that it's the only reason SOME people are good. saying it's the only reason people are good is stupid. you are right.

also God did not have intercourse with the virgin mary. if he is the creator of the uniiverse he would not even need to. he could easily just put the child into her womb.

I cannot give you utter proof. the only way to do that would be to bring God down from heaven or to kill you. so if you want to meet somewhere so I CAN kill you to prove God exists then why don't you arrrange a place for us to meet? because that's about the only way I could Prove God exists. you're basically using the defense that because you haven't seen God you aren't going to believe in him.

also I never said there isn't evolution. it is true that creatures evolve. however I doubt that humans came into being from natural selection. if we keep the stuff that is useful then why didn't we keep prehensile tails? or claws? or gills? those would all be useful in ways today. also if your precious darwinism is so true then why dodn't other animals evolve into humans

also if christianity was merely a tale without any proof of it being somewhat true i doubt people would have believed it for 2,000 years.
also it doesn't matter how ashamed you are of being of the same race as me it's not going to change any time soon.

also I told you anti hacker. heated debate can make bitter enemies. even though I have no problem with him no mercy probably wants to slice me open just so he doesn't have to listen to me anymore.

you can say that christianity is merely a bedtime story to scare kids inot believing good but I can also say that darwinism is a last resort for people who don't want to believe in God. we both have our beliefs and probably always will