A Rena vs Anti Debate

[nomercy]

Ah, thanks for the clarification. I remember that now.

[nomercy]

I got bored and had a quick read through the bible, and found a sector I enjoyed thoroughly. It's about god "freeing" the Israelites from Egypt. Now my views on it are as such.

To free the Jews from the slavery HE bound them to, god waged biowar against a helpless nation of people WHO HAD NO IDEA why all this horrible stuff was killing them.
Moses spoke to Pharaoh who is never mentioned making public proclamations about the next plague to strike so they could keep their pet Jews.

No "the Jews god is now going to kill every firstborn in the land but we are still refusing to give the Jews permission to leave, I will not be swayed.
will the firstborns of each family please report to their nearest graveyard to help out our currently overstressed corpse transportation oxen, love, pharaoh."

God literally used Weapons of Mass Destruction on a bronze age population.

To steal SOME slaves.

As opposed to Creating a 100 foot cube of gold and buying them back from the folks he sold them to.


God apparently would have sustained the Jews during their journey, during which god lit a fire in the camp that burned thousands to death, set loose a plague that killed thousands more, and caused the ground to open up and swallow entire families sending them straight to hell, families INCLUDING their slaves.

As punishment.

As opposed to assigning an angel to each offender to swat them about the head and shoulders with a rolled up newspaper while shouting " BAD HUMAN, NO! NO!" for a week.

It also states that god would decimate their enemies in the land. Again, genocide, mass killings, slaughter of entire nations.

Instead of Creating nice, air conditioned, apartment buildings, or just giving the current occupants an urge to go somewhere else and make new nations, North America for instance, a few ark building tips and a favorable breeze and uncounted thousands of children's blood need not have been shed.


Destruction, never construction. No building up, only tearing down.

[Link777]

That reminds me of that South Park episode where they bomb heaven 'cause Saddam's building WMD's there.
Off topic, I know but still...

[nomercy]

Even though in the movie he was in Hell? Continuity issue there.

[pso king]

first of all I thougtt you said that the bible is and I quote complete and utter farce. the Egyptians killed every newborn hebrew child. Egypt also owed joseph for saving them from famine and dying from starvation. if the egyptians had just let the israelites go NONE of it would have happened. also while Moses could have publicly told the people that those things were going to happen they probably wouldn't have believed him. they believed in the egyptian gods. phaaroah was whipping and beating israelite slaves. the egyptians took hebrew sons from their mothers and killed them. while the egyptians weren't completely responsible for the deaths they didn't try to stop the deaths either. if they had told pharaoh that they were agaisnt what he was doin then maybe he wouold have stopped. in other words the egyptians LET it happen. it's called justice. the definition of which is "fairness or reasonableness espescially in the way people are treated or in the way decisions are made" Phaoroah knew why the things were happening but he didn't let the people go

to another of your earlier points about God always destroying and not building up. It is always because the people have forsaken God. If we turn our backs on him he has the right to do the same to us. However he DIDN"T completely turn his back on us. he sent his only son to die for our sins. Jesus even had a choice. he chose to die on the cross.

about your earlier comment of noah's flood. he warned people. he tried to get the people to repent but they wouldn't. therefore God had two choices. either let them live and let the world become corrupted or destroy his creation. which would you have done? you would have done the same thing if you could have. every time God destroyed something he had good reason for it. If he decides to destroy the world again then it's probably because opf the same reason. however I doubt he will as long as there are enough good people left.

you're looking at everything in terms of black and white. which is idiotic. you also give people WHAT God did but not WHY he did it. if you just tell people what somebody did and not why then they'll suspect the person is a horrible person.

also to somebody's earlier comment about the crusades in the previous thread. the christian knights had no right to take jerusalem for themselves but neither did the saracens

also on a more cheerful note congrats on getting married. My router wasn't working so I couldn't get on and tell you before.

[nomercy]

Y'know, we could have just continued in the other thread. After all, this is The Void. Either way, get your game on.

The bible is an utter farce; I quoted its morbid and morose fallacies because they amuse me, and show yet more broken links in the chain of its so-called truth, a false cry of defeat.

I am not defending what the Pharaoh did, far from it. I don't condone any of it, I think of many of the events in the bible, both by the so-called "heretics" and those upon god's right hand, as pure idiocy.

Fool; You believe it was fair and just that innocent children died? You believe the Egyptians died for it out of justice? HA! Justice enforces by no means the death of another, by your hand or by the hand of those of the victims, their families, their friends. That is not justice, that is vengeance.

I will not speak for the Pharaoh, as I am not him, nor do I know of accounts he made, other than in the bible, which I will not respect until I find otherwise.

The people forsake your god because we do not need a god. Look around you. Your TV, your computer, your videogames, none are labeled "by god". If god is real he would surely know that by giving us intelligence and free will, that some day we would no longer need him. Again, we come back to him choosing to do it. and again, it puts me in mind of a child. A foolish child, throwing their toy out of their pram. Having a tantrum because they cannot have their own way. I would rather not offer myself to such a weak-minded fool.

If Jesus had a choice, he made it. Not me, not you, not anyone. HE chose to die; WE are not at fault.

Again we fall to the same ideal. God would either let his "creation" fall into "corruption", which would mean he would no longer have control over it, or he could DESTROY it. Child in a pram, a tantrum. NOT FIT TO RULE.

Indeed, I sometimes take a perspective which holds only two sides, but it is the perspective your own holy book subscribes to. There is good, and there is bad. There are no tangents. Before you lecture me on such an ideal, you should try not being such a hypocrite.

As a side-note, how would I, a mere mortal, as you are, be able to speak of the reasoning behind a god? If your harbinger of light is so powerful he would need not divulge his motives to his creations, whence he can smash them like the pitiful insects they are.

Fact of the matter with the Crusades, you're trying to justify what king Richard did by saying in effect "well they did it first!" Bull. Turn the other cheek, your beloved book of lies tells you. I'm afraid to say, oh mighty King Richard failed at this. But then, as I mentioned before, one rule for the lords, another for the peons. Should god be real, then we are on a chess board; We are the pawns. We are nothing.

Who acquit the guilty for a bribe,
But deny justice to the innocent.

For the price of your aquittal was paid by the blood of jesus on the cross
Kill them all, man woman and child, saving only the virgin girls for your personal pleasure.

You cannot revoke my argument now, because I will support it with passages taken from your beloved book of doom.

"Let us do evil that good may result"

In the slaughter of a city in the Promised Land the Jews showed compassion and mercy and did NOT kill all the children AS GOD HAD COMMANDED.

This was evil of them, they did evil, in not murdering the children, that good might result.

The trick here is in defining evil as NOT MURDERING CHILDREN.

Woe to those who call evil good
And good evil,

God TRANSFORMS evil into good and good into evil. What was evil, murdering a city, full of children, BECOMES good, and what was good, NOT murdering a city, full of children, becomes evil. It takes a god to make evil good and good evil, a evil man can only CALL evil good, god makes it true, and punishes the evil.

I thank you for your well wishes, and hope you had a merry Christmas.

[pink]

New topic was NOT needed. Merging...

[nomercy]

Much obliged ma'am.

[pso king]

well the reason I made a new post was because I got a pm saying that it is not allowed posting in topics older than one week.

once again it was JUSTICE in egypt not vengeance. the rest of the egyptians are as responsible for the deaths as phaoroah because they LET the deaths happen. they could have prevented it by objecting to phaoroah and they didn't. it would be like if you were in a room with a friend and they were going to kill somebody. you could tell your friend to stop and try and prevent them from doing it. however if you take no measures to prevent it from happening then you are just as responsible as the person who did it and you deserve to be punished. if somebody killed maybe i don't know 10 people from your family you'd want them dead as well. Pharoah probably killed millions. God tried to convince him with every other plague. he kept the israelites and made his own people suffer. the tenth plague barely convinced him. he even tried to take the israelites back afterwards. if evil people are not willing to repent then you have to do something. while I admit that some of the people that were killed were children I bet they were far from innocent

I'm not saying that what king richard did was justified I'm saying that NEITHER religion deserved to have the holy city to themselves. they should have just allowed each other to come and go as they please.

of course the things don't say "by god" if they did then the answer to who did this or that would be "God did it" so people don't give it the credit to God because if the answer was always God did it there would be no point in learning anything. also God didn't make any of the video games or computers. humans did. that is why they don't say by God.

Jesus chose to die FOR us. therefore WE are technically responsible. had We not fallen into sin he wouldn't have had to die.

he didn't destroy the world because he no longer had control of the people in it. he never HAD and probably never WILL have complete control over us. he did it becuase there were no good people left except for noah. who he let escape. God destroys people when thgey try to act like gods.. we are not Gods we are no more than dirt. that doesn't mean we aren't important but it Does mean that we cannot think any of us is any more important than the other.

yes there is good and there is bad but there is also a middle ground. sometimes you HAVE to do something. sometimes there is NO other choice. for example. say that your friend told you something private. if somebody asked you about the secret you would lie because you told your friend that you would keep it a secret. sometimes the goodness of doing something outweighs the badness. in those cases you usually do that thing. when you don't bad things happen a lot of the time.

I guess you are right that it is hard to justify killing the children in the promised land. I do not know how to yet so I won't try. i'm not saying what God did was evil though.


one more thing. if I were able to put enough proof on the table would you renounce darwinism? because if not then there is not much point in debating this much further. we both want to convince the other but I think that both of us are too stubborn to budge.


one other thing. of course the things that God did are untestable, undescribable and unameable mechanisms. you can't test things that a divine being did to make the entire world. otherwise it would be humanly possible to do those things. you can't DESCRIBE something that you can't understand. you can't really name something that you've never seen and hasn't been described. Why would a supernatural deity care if his/her methods are understandable by any but them? I guess this sort of goes for your side but it does the same for our side.

some humans do try to play God. it is a fact. Hitler did, amenhotep II also did. (this is the pharoah that most historians maintain was ruling when the ten plagues happened) Alexander the great and atilla the hun also did. History is filled with people who tried to play GOd and it never turned out well. atilla? dead and never found. Alexander the great? dead from an unkown illness, germ or something else along those line. hitler? dead. Amenhotep II? we've already discussed wwhat happened to his kingdom.

last thing. if there were no governments then nobody could EVER be brought to justice. it would be utter chaos without governments. the only "justice" that would exist would be vengeance which are two different things. I'm not saying that the governments we have are great. However they are better than none whatsoever. Also like I have previously stated. religion stops some people from doing evil things. without it there would be more evil. no matter how much people want it to a utopia can never exist. here are some of the main reasons. greed, gluttony,lust and wrath.

while I agree that somebody's earlier comment about relligion being the opiate of the masses oyu also have to admit that there would be chaos without governments and religion. while we haven't found the best type of government without them it would be chaos. some people only follow the law because they are afraid of going to jail. without governments those people wouldn't care. also the only way to get rid of governments would be to assassinate all the people who were in charge of them. while some of those leaders probably deserve it.

[Jimbo1990]

i think i speak for all of us (with exception to you and nomercy coz you understand this) when i say >_<;;